The gap on Hole 11...

This is the place to veiw upcoming work parties and report maintenance issues that need to be fixed on the course.

The gap on Hole 11...

Postby todd » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:47 am

...continues to get bigger which makes it more enticing to take the line to the left. Those that play the course regularly know how dangerously close discs can get to Tee 12, as well as, making Hole 11 terribly easy.

we had an incident on saturday morning with a group of golfers that apparently had never played the course before. they tried to get through said gap and threw onto tee pad 12 (twice!) hitting one of us in the back. this was after we asked them to yell fore after the first time they did it. not a pretty sight.

anyways, i'm sure this has happened to some of you before. and i know there has been some discussion about putting up a larger net to avoid this. we've got a work party coming up and i thought that it would be a good time to bring this topic back to surface so that we can fix this before someone get seriously injured.

thoughts?
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Postby pepe » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:45 pm

yup. probably need to extend the net there. Either that or allow people to go through the existing gap with yet another tee pad net at 12. I vote for the former: the hole was never designed to allow people to get through the middle.

Also on 11, the net that protects the tee pad was again vandalized. We should replace the wooden posts with steel ones. They'll last a little longer for a comparable price.
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Postby mgoofy24 » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:56 am

pepe wrote:yup. probably need to extend the net there. Either that or allow people to go through the existing gap with yet another tee pad net at 12. I vote for the former: the hole was never designed to allow people to get through the middle.

Also on 11, the net that protects the tee pad was again vandalized. We should replace the wooden posts with steel ones. They'll last a little longer for a comparable price.


Man, I love taking the sidearm route through the gap (I haven't come anywhere near the 12 teepad).  I can see how players throwing backhand and taking that line would represent a danger to players on 12, even more so seeing how many new players are on the course at any given time.  Even though I like making 11 an easy birdie hole, safety should come first :)

That net was vandalized again!?  Jebus.  I agree with pepe, maybe some metal poles would be cost beneficial in the long run...
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Postby hrc333 » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:56 pm

The talk has been making a mando on 11.  I am not sure this would help with the beginner problem.
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Postby mgoofy24 » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:22 pm

hrc333 wrote:The talk has been making a mando on 11.  I am not sure this would help with the beginner problem.


This would make the hole play the way it was meant to be played, however, as you pointed out, most beginners don't even know what a mando is and would probably not care (judging from my observations of playing behind/in front of their groups of 8) even if they did.

Safety seems like the larger concern.

I do think that in the meantime, making it a mando (telling people during the weekly), would be a great idea and would make the hole play like it was meant to.
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Postby k3vIn » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:45 pm

what about if we hang a net right from the tree itself?  cover the gap by using some of the larger branches for support...

my concern (having been the guy who got hit on saturday, and being witness to several other very close calls), is that any addition to the net on the 11 tee (i've heard people say taller and/or wider) will not really be effective in closing that gap off to 12 without impinging on the intended shot.  This should also allow the trees to grow back some, which a net on 12 will not do.

also, would definitely keep noobs (or anyone in control or no) from having that option.

my 2 cents...
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Postby zz » Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:08 am

I'd suggest making a mando sign there and extending the existing netting close to the tee to prevent a legal tee off that would hit that gap.  

I took the gap last night...stand still firebird flick for ace run.  I really don't see how this makes the hole that much easier though.  With the gap, at least the righty/lefty hole distribution possibilities are more even.  As it sits now I see the course with 9 holes that are only righty, 2 holes with only lefty routes and the rest with multiple...either righty/lefty, straight with a righty or lefty hyzer, or the full boat straight/righty/lefty.  Therefore, all multiple route holes would need to be in the lefty pin position to generate a fair lefty/righty course.
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Postby pepe » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:53 am

zz wrote:I'd suggest making a mando sign there and extending the existing netting close to the tee to prevent a legal tee off that would hit that gap.  

I took the gap last night...stand still firebird flick for ace run.  I really don't see how this makes the hole that much easier though.  With the gap, at least the righty/lefty hole distribution possibilities are more even.  As it sits now I see the course with 9 holes that are only righty, 2 holes with only lefty routes and the rest with multiple...either righty/lefty, straight with a righty or lefty hyzer, or the full boat straight/righty/lefty.  Therefore, all multiple route holes would need to be in the lefty pin position to generate a fair lefty/righty course.


conceptually I agree. However, most people aren't as good as you, will throw backhands, and end up stabbing someone in the back on the 12 tee.

as for righty/lefty holes, here is my list:

Strongly favors LEFTY:
1b,c
2b
4b,c
6b
7a,b,c
8classic/c
10c
12b,c
13b
14a,b
15c
17c
18c

Strongly favors RIGHTY:
1a
2c
all of hole 3
4a
all of hole 5
6b,c
7B
8A
9a,c
10b
all of 11
12a
13a
14c
15a,b
16a,b
17a
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Postby mgoofy24 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:48 am

pepe wrote:
Strongly favors LEFTY:
1b,c
2b
4b,c
6b
7a,b,c
8classic/c
10c
12b,c
13b
14a,b
15c
17c
18c


I just want to take issue with a few of these, because I agree with zz that most of the course favors righty.

I will agree with 1b and c.

2 is short enough that it doesn't really matter.  I can throw flick or toss a putter with some anny on it.  I would actually rather throw the putter with anny because its pretty easy to control (and it doesn't skip like a Lefty hyzer/flick shot and end up off in the bushes)

4b,c - b is even in my eyes.  4c favors a righty anny because it will flex unlike a lefty hyzer, and has a better chance of getting over the gap.

6b - not sure, pretty even in my eyes.

7a,b,c - will agree.  Throw a nice stable disc, watch it fall off to the right :)  Wish my elbow would let me throw flick that far still...

8classic/c (not sure what classic is), but when 8 is in c, I would much rather have my disc falling in to the left versus risking a lefty hyzer fall way off to the right.  I throw a Roc here, flat and watch it coast in.

10c - will agree, although a big anny looks pretty here :)

12b,c - disagree.  Overstable and fast disc works great here (new Destroyers, Z-Preds).  These still favor righty.

13b - agree

14a,b - toss up in my opinion.  I throw a Buzzz with anny, get within 20 feet consistently.  Still, lefty hyzer here might be better.  I lean towards lefty.

15c - righty all the way, i don't my disc fading right at the end with that hill and OB in the meadow.  I want my disc falling into the slope of the hill.

17c - hard enough to get down this hill without hitting anything.  A straight shot seems the way to go no matter what.  Equal imo

18c - again, a toss up imo.  I like having my disc flexing through that gap, but again, a hard hole no matter which way you throw.  Disc has so much speed from elevation loss that its hard to get it to come back from either side.

So, again, i agree with zz that this course is mostly set up for righty.

But, i agree with you pepe that the gap on 12 should probably be fixed for safety.  I like the flick route that the gap provides, but most new players will throw backhand and endanger those on 12 tee.
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Postby hrc333 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:57 am

I agree with Pepe analysis here to a point.  But when you talk about flicks or anny then of course all holes can play to both right and left.  When you talk about what favors what, I think the general idea is if you throw the standard backhand hyzer shot.  When you say 2b is not a left shot cause you can throw a flick, this is true on all holes everywhere.  If you can throw a good two finger flick, you can make any right dogleg work for a right handed player.  Using your criteria, a lefty just needs to throw a good flick on 11b and he is perfect, thus it is not really a right handed hole.  

As one of the people who spend an obscene amount of time discussing the course design and layout, I think it is a fairly balanced layout.  I think there is a small right handed bias but not near the extend that only 2 holes favor lefties.
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Postby mgoofy24 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:32 am

hrc333 wrote:I agree with Pepe analysis here to a point.  But when you talk about flicks or anny then of course all holes can play to both right and left.  When you talk about what favors what, I think the general idea is if you throw the standard backhand hyzer shot.  When you say 2b is not a left shot cause you can throw a flick, this is true on all holes everywhere.  If you can throw a good two finger flick, you can make any right dogleg work for a right handed player.  Using your criteria, a lefty just needs to throw a good flick on 11b and he is perfect, thus it is not really a right handed hole.  

As one of the people who spend an obscene amount of time discussing the course design and layout, I think it is a fairly balanced layout.  I think there is a small right handed bias but not near the extend that only 2 holes favor lefties.


I agree.  I love the course.  I just think that it makes lefties be a little more inventive then righties for the most part.

One thing about your post though.  I threw flick for a majority of my time playing (I've played for about 19 years, threw flick exclusively for about 16 of those years till my elbow gave out), and i found that it is much harder to throw a long flick hyzer versus a backhand hyzer.  The arm motion required to throw a flick hyzer, I assume lefty, (especially for 11) is much more uncomfortable and less accurate than the backhand and has less distance potential.

Last edit:  Back to the point of this post though, I agree that the hole on 12 should probably be fixed somehow before someone on 12 gets hit in the head (as Kevin has already been hit in the back).
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Postby pepe » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:23 am

mgoofy24 wrote:
I just want to take issue with a few of these, because I agree with zz that most of the course favors righty.

I will agree with 1b and c.

2 is short enough that it doesn't really matter.  I can throw flick or toss a putter with some anny on it.  I would actually rather throw the putter with anny because its pretty easy to control (and it doesn't skip like a Lefty hyzer/flick shot and end up off in the bushes)

4b,c - b is even in my eyes.  4c favors a righty anny because it will flex unlike a lefty hyzer, and has a better chance of getting over the gap.

6b - not sure, pretty even in my eyes.

7a,b,c - will agree.  Throw a nice stable disc, watch it fall off to the right :)  Wish my elbow would let me throw flick that far still...

8classic/c (not sure what classic is), but when 8 is in c, I would much rather have my disc falling in to the left versus risking a lefty hyzer fall way off to the right.  I throw a Roc here, flat and watch it coast in.

10c - will agree, although a big anny looks pretty here :)

12b,c - disagree.  Overstable and fast disc works great here (new Destroyers, Z-Preds).  These still favor righty.

13b - agree

14a,b - toss up in my opinion.  I throw a Buzzz with anny, get within 20 feet consistently.  Still, lefty hyzer here might be better.  I lean towards lefty.

15c - righty all the way, i don't my disc fading right at the end with that hill and OB in the meadow.  I want my disc falling into the slope of the hill.

17c - hard enough to get down this hill without hitting anything.  A straight shot seems the way to go no matter what.  Equal imo

18c - again, a toss up imo.  I like having my disc flexing through that gap, but again, a hard hole no matter which way you throw.  Disc has so much speed from elevation loss that its hard to get it to come back from either side.

So, again, i agree with zz that this course is mostly set up for righty.

But, i agree with you pepe that the gap on 12 should probably be fixed for safety.  I like the flick route that the gap provides, but most new players will throw backhand and endanger those on 12 tee.


While I, as a righty, will throw a high speed disc on 12 when it is in B or C, I will never be able to get it close to the pins whereas a lefty or a righty flick thrower can actually get it there with the s curve. In A the hole is decidedly a righty hole.

Are you serious about 18C? Such a lefty pin! 15 C is a bit more even but a lefty can pump one out over the A pin and watch it fade towards C, while the righty needs more of an S curve to get there.

anywho, fun DISCussion!
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Postby mgoofy24 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:56 am

I've never been close to 12C, never even seen anyone close.  Par is a good score there.  As for 12b, I've been in birdie range throwing a brand new destroyer, missed the putt of course.  One thing to keep in mind on 12b and throwing a big S shot is that you lose a lot of control where your disc lands when you throw a shot like that.  I've seen discs not come back and end up in bushes on the left, as well as flex out too soon and wind up short and on the hill.

On 15c - I throw a pro wraith.  It flies pretty straight with gentle fade at the end.  If I take it down the right side of the fairway and over the bushes, it drops in nicely to the left, sometimes below, sometimes above the pin.  Personally, I would be a bit scared throwing lefty or flick here.  I never like having a disc fade in the direction the hill slopes.  Large skips lead to long putts... lol :)

And yes, this is a fun discussion :)
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Postby zz » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:55 pm

My point is that a majority of the holes only have placements for righty hyzer and this causes the course on average to be a righty hyzer course.  

I'm not focusing on if a hole is a righty vs. lefty hyzer hole, but rather which holes lack the potential for alternate opposite lines.  I make this point not to criticize the course design, but rather to bring the point to light for pin placements and future sleeve installations.  

I break the holes down first by available lines with all pin positions assuming a righty backhand.  Possible lines are either righty hyzer, lefty hyzer or straight.

1- L,S
2- R,L,S
3- R
4- R,L,S
5- R
6- R,L,S
7- R,L
8- R,L,S
9- R,S
10- L,S
11- R
12- R
13- R,L,S
14- R
15- R
16- R
17- R
18- R,L,S

Next, identify holes lacking an alternative opposite line and designate holes as either righty dominate, lefty dominate or can go either way.  I get:

Righty dominate; 3,5,9,11,12,14,15,16,17
Lefty dominate: 1,10
neutral: 2,4,6,7,8,13,18

After re-reading this...I might say hole 14 is a neutral hole with the A position.  I don't mind the normal righy hyzer nature of the course...its great for me to work on my missionary technique.
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Postby pepe » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:28 pm

ah future sleeve installations. Music to my ears! I'm definitely down with that idea and have identified several places I think would make great 'D' pins. Though suffice it to say hole 3 will still be righty hole, since I can't think of a spot that would make it more lefty friendly without being on the right side of the path...in other words, out of bounds. McLaren will be fun though!
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